Comments 31

欧洲内战

Jul 21, 2015 Anne-Marie Slaughter

华盛顿——签署希腊债务问题初步协议的谈判挽救了两种激烈冲突的欧盟愿景：即由法国所主张的人性化的灵活政治联盟以及由德国所推崇的墨守成规的经济联合体。正如弗朗索瓦·埃斯堡最近在文章中所写的那样，“德国公开考虑逼迫希腊[从欧元区]退出已经证明经济战胜了政治和战略方面的考虑。法国则有着不同的排序。”现在的问题是哪种愿景将最终胜出？

希腊一直以经济学家无法理解和预测的方式将民族认同感放在民生问题之前考虑。因为留在欧盟及恢复使用可以贬值的国家货币原本可以兼得，希腊人宁愿保留欧盟成员资格的决策从经济上看并不合理。

但对希腊人而言，欧元区成员资格并不仅仅意味着可以使用共同货币。他们的国家因此可以和意大利、西班牙、法国和德国对等，同样都是欧洲的“正式成员国”——这样的地位才配得上希腊这个西方文明的发源地。

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0 Comments on this paragraph, 47 in all 47 Comments on this article

Andrei Yanovski Aug 18, 2015

The states are not created gradually. The US was not produced through slow integration of states. I know not a single example in history, where states were created through slow converging akin to what Europe is performing now. EU is not a state, not a super-state, in historical tems, it is a trade pact. The federalist vision of Europe in its early iteration is the one that could have indeed led to a united Europe, if the popular consensus was strong enough at the time (and I have no idea if it indeed was). But that opportunity window is 20 years gone. "Pooling sovereignity" does not work - EU as a whole has basically no international sovereignity at all, and very little economical if we understand sovereignity as the entity's ability to take sovereign independent decisions and enforce them. The EU takes power from national governments, but it dissipates that power rather than focuses it. And so, the future is now undecided - sooner or later and existential crisis will arise and force a decision - breakoff or fusion under real single federal (or confederal, no matter) authority. That time may be mere years or many decades in the future.
Brian Nienhaus Aug 1, 2015

To those who say Europe is not embroiled by a civil war I agree, because a civil war needs at least two parties who are consciously aware that they are in conflict.

I believe the author is saying that for Europe to have a future, to 'unite properly' as a respondent put it about the U.S., it will have to have a vision. Beyond becoming a buyer's club Europe currently lacks such a vision. But this doesn't make the article idealist. The absence of a vision, the absence of awareness of where one stands, are central parts of an economic order Europe seems to be importing from the U.S. This will not bode well for Europe as its post-war generations grew used to being able to think in sustained fashion and converse deeply and fruitfully with others. Some in Europe still believe these things describe continental life, but for an increasing part of the population they do not. If members of the former community put forth visions of a better European future, they will be exposed as out of touch with the latter community. So increasingly, Europeans who believe they have a vision will be silent or will write to each other in ever smaller circles. Stasis will rule the day; the buyer's club will remain what it means to be European.
Constantine Siappas Jul 27, 2015

Hopefully EU will become a closer federation without having to shed blood.
j. von Hettlingen Jul 26, 2015

The United States needed a civil war to unite properly. Strictly speaking a civil war is a struggle for power between competing factions within the same political community, that is being decided through "physical violence". The American civil war fits the category as it was about one part of the country trying to break away from the rest, triggering a bloody clash between organised armies.
Anne-Marie Slaughter ought to know that despite the "two competing visions of the European Union: the flexible, humane, and political union espoused by France, and the legalistic and economy-focused union promoted by Germany", Europe is not embroiled a "civil war". What Asians, Americans and Africans don't understand is that, although we, Europeans have so many languages and cultures, we have a list of people in history, who unite us, from Aristotle to Shakespeare, from Mozart to Picasso etc. We also have a few, whose ideologies had divided us, from Adam Smith to Karl Marx, from John Locke to Joseph Stalin etc.
It's true that the creation of the European Economic Community in 1957, initially a common market that aimed to bring countries in Western Europe together, had since evolved into what is now the European Union. The treaties had made provision for "a larger political union" that opted for a "common European polity and identity, as well as a unified economy". Europe had been able to fuse many identities, without confusing them. But they are also vulnerable to political and socio-economic changes.
Yet it is not hyperbolic to note that the Old Continent is in a crisis, as its supranationalism faces multiple challenges, like a weak governance and a reeling economy. Unlike the USA, which is a unitary state with a common language, the EU is using the single currency as a means to forge a closer Union, dispite fiscal and economic discrepancies on national level. Since the credit crunch hit the Eurozone in 2008, frustration gave way to populism and hostility within the Union.
Slaughter asks, what François Hollande meant, when he said, he didn't want a Europe that “no longer progresses,” doubting if he would ever be able to deliver. she can't expect to find politicians of statesmanlike qualities in every generation, who "articulate a vision of a shared future" for the whole continent. Unfortunately in a democracy, you can't force all citizens to contribute to a Europe, that is "worth working and even sacrificing for". Instead they expect politicians to "offer the credible prospect of a better life" for them.
Siegfried Eschen Jul 26, 2015

It is a legend, that Greece is the birthplace of Western civilization. Thanks to the translation of the classical Greece texts, collected by the Muslim rulers, from Arab into Latin in Toledo at the turn of the last millennium and after, the 'Westerners ' started to know about the Greek. There is no Western culture, by the way. So one should stop using this type of argument. If we want a European culture, is there any definition of European except for some vague geographical description?
steve from virginia Jul 26, 2015

The euro and eurozone is a fuel buyers' club and nothing more.

The euro was intended as a hard-currency alternative to the dollar and sterling, currencies the smaller European countries needed to buy first on forex markets before they could import petroleum. This discounting of smaller European currencies left them out of the queue when it can to living large like Americans (as seen on TV).

The Europeans believed that monetary stringency would allow a euro premium over the dollar, that fiscal or political structures were unnecessary ... consequently, they weren't pursued. All that was needed was a currency and central bank.

As far as it goes, both the currency and its attached stringency have proven to be failures, the dollar is increasingly preferred to the euro, which has been rendered useless as a fuel price hedge by depletion of crude resource.
Brent Beach Jul 26, 2015

Thanks for the idealist article.
That vision, your mother's vision, was overtaken by the oligarchs and big banks.
When times got tough and the international finance banks failed, they were bailed out at 100 cents on the dollar. By the taxpayers. On the pretext that it was the countries that were being bailed out.
Next time around, in the next idealist incarnation of Europe, make sure that the union is not run by and for the banks.
John Ellis Jul 26, 2015

This piece is a classic example of why I tend to have a low opinion of academics. It's a borderline hysterical bit of condescending sermonizing. Europe's civil war? Europe had a civil war that, depending how you measure it, lasted from 1914 to 1945. To compare the current minor ripples in the sea of European unity with either those terrible years or those of the 1850's in the US demonstrates an appalling lack of perspective. Greece is a small, not very consequential country, of 12 million people (out of the 337 million in the Eurozone alone) on the Southern periphery of Europe that has got into severe financial difficulties because of its corrupt domestic political system. This is not a civil war (hot or cold) across the whole of Europe. If Ms Slaughter is a typical example of the level of competence in the US state department there is occasion for concern.
Joulie benoit Jul 24, 2015

La réalité est bien différente : une grande majorité de Grecs préfèrent rester dans l'euro, en effet, c'est le contribuable européen qui paye les retraites et les fonctionnaires en Grèce. Tsipras l'a bien compris, si la Grèce sort de l'euro, le pays s'appauvrira considérablement, aucun agent économique n'aura confiance dans la nouvelle monnaie de la Grèce. Et les Grecs ne trouveront personnes pour leur prêter.
Ivaylo Kolev Jul 24, 2015

Yes, Greece is a birthplace of word democracy, but also of the word demagogue...
Ivaylo Kolev Jul 24, 2015

What about the others poor but disciplined Balkan neighbors of Greece?
Hypocrisy
Diego Orlandi Jul 24, 2015

I find it extremely short-sighted and manipulative to use poorer countries in the Baltics as "human shields" to the Greek crisis. If there is an extremely "robust" person with a chicken, and two hungry people beside, it is very manipulative to blame one's hunger on the other's. Why did this kind of rhetoric not get used for the bank bailouts in the name of the tax payers?
Diego Orlandi Jul 24, 2015

Some of the EUs "opponents" could also be considered, in some cses, its truest believers. Criticism does not imply lack of interest or the will to bring something down, but all of the contrary.
camille hurn Jul 22, 2015

Interestingly in the UK, possibly the most Euro-sceptic EU member, the referendum on continuing EU membership may get a "Yes" vote for both economic and political reasons. The UK business community is generally expected to advocate a "Yes", but equally the younger generation is very pro Europe politically.
camille hurn Jul 22, 2015

Politically Syriza also prefers pan-European socialism rather than solely in Greece on top of the national identity argument you put forward.
jagjeet sinha Jul 22, 2015

One Single Currency was the enigma that remained evasive in French dreams, in 1803.
When the Corporal from Corsica conjured an Empire to challenge The Anglosphere.
The Latin Monetary Union was created in 1865 - France Italy Austria Belgium Switzerland.
Peru Colombia Venezuela too joined the LMU, later.
As did Greece Serbia Bulgaria Albania, later.
Proceedings of 1914 ended those dreams.
Just like proceedings of 1814 had ended the dreams of 1803.
Perfecting the Union and the Empire is an evolutionary process.
Lessons from interludes like Greece mere aberrations in the Grand Design.
Monetary Union does not suffice, Fiscal Union is next, Political Union thereafter.
One Language perhaps The Final Solution.
The interlude is a long night - as a few more million migrate for salvation.
To The Anglosphere - it still looks like English eventually.
Nothing has changed in Europe.
Dimitri Caporal Jul 22, 2015

"a position consistent with Greece’s status as the birthplace of Western civilization."

LOL.Columbus, Ohio was the birthplace of the NFL. Do you see anybody paying homage to Columbus as the birthplace of pro football? Does it have anything to do with football? Greece being "the birthplace of Western civilization" was an invention of 19th century classicists like Lord Byron, ashamed of being descendants of cave men and looking for some more grandiose explanation of their origins. Greece is not a Western country. It is a vestige of the Ottoman Empire and has Ottoman habits and Ottoman ways of looking at things. Greece is their amusement park to revel in someone else's "glorious past" and adopt it as their own.
- Jose araujo Jul 22, 2015
  
  Your kowledge of NFL aperars to be similar to your knowledge of history.
  
  NFL wasn't born in Columbus, actually don't recall any major PRO football teams in Columbus. You could have said Canton, Akron, Ohio,but Columbus..... LOL
  
  Regarding Greece has the birth of western civilization, well what can I say. For sure Greece was our inspiration, not the Hunns, Chinese, Egipt, etc. Greece was the inspiration of Romans who were the creators of the western civilization, they inspired Renascense and the Humanist movement.
  
  Actually its a good time to ask ourselves what are the pillars of our civilization, and why our ancestors allways looked up to Greece for Inspiration, not the Hunns or the Prussians
Peter Schneider Jul 21, 2015

The bitter undertone in this article towards Germany (and the other creditor countries) can only be viewed as an insult by any German, Dutch, Finnish, Slovakian, ... citizen. After pumping 320.000.000.000 euros into Greece (plus 80.000.000.000 with the next "rescue" package, plus 90.000.000.000 ELA transfers, plus 100.000.000.000 Target-2 transfers) of which Germany guarantees 25% + x, after breaching the no bail-out clause and all the other essential safeguards of the Maastricht architecture, after our parliaments have been coerced more than once to agree on new treaty supplements that were submitted only in the night before the decision and moreover in a foreign language - after all this we are still showered with abuse here, that we were "inflexible", "inhumane", lacking "solidarity", depriving others of their "dignity" - Mr. Varoufakis even calls us "terrorists" and "Nazis".

What about our own dignity? What about the dignity of the Baltic people who had to endure harsh adjustments themselves and who are now obliged to pay 3% of their budget to the Greeks who possess a much higher standard of living? What about the dignity of the German people who want their own parliament to decide on their budget and who do not want to be on the hook of the ECB or foreign governments? What about the dignity of those people who pay their taxes or who reject corruption? What about the dignity of those people who still believe in the rule of law?

For myself I can say that I'm fed up with the European "house" that you want to prescribe. And please ask your mother about the newest developments in Belgium where different people are forced into one country. And if ever Mr. Juncker, the president of the European Commission, felt inclined to hold his own "Gettysburg adress", then surely everyone from Lisbon to Vilnius would consider him as a foreigner.
- Jose araujo Jul 22, 2015
  
  Peter,
  
  Just think a bit. You know that from the 320 Billion Euros more then 70% were used to replace the debt of the Greek Banks, so they wouldn't default and the German people wouldn't have to rescue theire own banks.
  
  The money pumped into Greece is 320 Billion, but not solving the Greek crisis has costed us europeans several Trillions.
  
  I advice you to try and read some economic literature. Instead of spurring ignorance and demagogy try to educate yourself a bit about the problem. Read any of the most reputed economists in the world and try to understand what they are saying.
  
  If the interest of your own country comes above all others, then you shouldn't be in an economic union, should you?
  
  Actually considering the huge cost of not solving the Greek crisis, I don't even think you are taking your insterests in consideration, its just pure xenophobia and ego, again...
  
  50 years ago this guys were trying to destroy our civilization for the sake of the Prussian Arian values, can they ever learn to live in a world without causing this kind of problems....
Léonard Lovallo Jul 21, 2015

Umm methinks 'Civil War' is a bit over the top. Doing a bit the math Utilizing the equity markets as a proxy for economic growth and development the reason for these 'competing viewpoints' becomes clear (to me at least) and it has little to do with the philosophy of 'Europe' and what it means. In the past 10 years the German DAX index is up 130%, the French CAC40 index is up 11%.
M M Jul 21, 2015

Any scheme that the populous do not support cannot work. To get a population to support a scheme one needs the right political / financial leadership, something that is now lacking in the EU/EZ.
Mike Green Jul 21, 2015

what we have is the clash between reality and fantasy. Even if the possibility of a United States of Europe were to become real, the Greeks would still have to math basic math work. the political structure of Europe would not change that. Greece has been saying to the other Europeans, "we need you to take a haircut, write off $15B that you loaned us. e can't pay it back, and we are not willing to balance our budget to get back in the black and a position where we could possibly pay you. And, oh by the way, can we please have another $40B?" whether in the current EU or some new, more lovely fantasy republic, that tact just wont work.
- Jose araujo Jul 22, 2015
  
  Mike,
  
  The problem is that the previouse loans were made with provisions that made you increase the Debt not reduce it.
  
  Imagine that you refinance your mortgage and the bank demands you sell all your other assets, and you find yourself 3 years into the deal with a bigger debt because the assets you sold were the ones generating income.
  
  Now the bank only lends you more money if you change your job for a lower paying one and forces you to work 24 hours a day, and still there is no garantee that you wont increase your debt.
  
  Crazy no? Well that's the Greek situation...
hari naidu Jul 21, 2015

The concept of a potential *civil war* was the raison d'etre leading to Rome Treaty (1958). Peace has prevailed ever since, irrespective of political polarization and whatnot; and, EU institutions under ECJ has been a force of stability.

Of course, the Europe Project is not complete until economic, political, fiscal and financial union is completed. And given the Greece crisis, there is evidence to support that the process might not be delayed now but accelerated.
Foreigner's and specially academics from Anglo-Saxon countries have a hard time not only understanding how the EU system works but its macro political economy. Remember EU- 28 represents some 500 million citizens and more today.
- hari naidu Jul 21, 2015
  
  Suggest you also read Kornblum's comments below because he was American Ambassador to Germany and also a senior State Dept policy making official.
Andrew Allison Jul 21, 2015

The author confuses the EU with the EMU, and fails to recognize France's interest in turning the latter into a transfer union so that eventually it too can live off Germany. The European Monetary Union is just that -- and cannot survive without a fiscal union to prevent the spread of the Greek disease. Germany, and the other members which are managing their economies responsibly will never agree to a fiscal union. QED.
Richard Dolan Jul 21, 2015

A European political union would require many more internationalists, holding views similar to those expressed here by Ms. Slaughter, than currently exist in the various countries of Europe. For now, the peoples of Europe identify as Germans, Italians, Spaniards, Greeks, French, British, far more frequently than they do as 'Europeans.' That's another way of saying that the 'European' identity is today still an abstraction, lacking the concreteness of the various national identities to which people feel a visceral loyalty. Things will be different, perhaps, when it becomes possible to ask anyone at random on a street in Europe to sing a few bars of the European anthem and get a positive response. Not likely to find may who could today. In contrast every one in Europe could pass that test about his or her national anthem.
otto ruthenberg Jul 21, 2015

Do not confuse different sets of political preferences in Europe with "civil war". Debtors simply seek ways for transfers and creditors seek ways to limit transfers. That is no civil war either but ordinary politics of interest. You may wrap transfers in a European myth to justify them temporarily but expect that myth to evaporate when ever more Europeans percieve free riding on the central institutions. Transfer recipients never quit but in the end such flawed constructions fall when the key provider pulls the plug. Watch Germany not Greece, France or Italy to put an end to a Eurozone without visible convergence to a common set of political preferences.
John Kornblum Jul 21, 2015

This article contains so many misstatements and illusions that it is hard to know where to begin. Suffice to say, it helps explain why Europeans and Americans are finding it increasingly difficult to talk with each other. The Franco-German comparison is painfully wrong. It ignores the past 60 years of European history and seems to forget that it was the French who forced the Germans into the Euro to begin with. When French people talk about political and strategic considerations, you know they mean follow French demands.
Petey Bee Jul 21, 2015

To say it's a civil war is an exaggeration. The EU/EC policies are not new -- they're much like the classic "neo-liberal" formula to go into a country in trouble, lend them more than they can pay, when they can't, force them to nationalize assets then privatize these assets to benefit cronies of the lending institutions. I.e., predatory lending.

It's a sign of some pretty deep cynicism within the EU. Something tells me that those who would profit are not going to be the much-suffering "ordinary German taxpayer". The decision maker buddies of the would be profiteers claim without any kind of shame the cultural stereotype of Germans who like rules, when really it's just the universal human quality of greed hiding somewhere. Same as ever.

The only surprise is this is not to a geopolitically powerless developing country but rather to the exact origin point of European civilization itself.
- Jose araujo Jul 23, 2015
  
  @Petey
  
  Examples of demand nationalization are plenty in Portugal.
  
  PPP's are the name, Hospitals were privatized but most of the demand comes from the national health system, Roads where the government pays a toll for each car that is supposed to travel there, etc
  
  PPPs, PFIs in England are usually a sign., but the most demonstrative is the European PAC, where around of 40% of the European Budget goes to and yet Primary Sector is less the 5% of the European GDP...
- Petey Bee Jul 22, 2015
  
  Jose,
  
  Thanks for bringing up the part about issuing monopolies and concessions -- I left that out. The rights to these monopolies (telecom, utilities, perhaps liquor or tobacco sales, etc) are the exact things that are supposed to be handed over to crony profiteers. What I was saying though was that these transfers are usually justified as "market reforms", to "improve efficiency".
  
  As for nationalizing demand - I thought that happens more in very wealthy countries? Do you know of any examples?
- Jose araujo Jul 22, 2015
  
  There seems to be a big confusion between leberal and corporate statism, which by default the conservative economic ideology.
  
  You see, corporate statism is where government controls the economy by issuing monopolies and concessions and promoting conglomerates.
  
  Corporate statism is also where you privatize production but nacionalize demand.
  
  So yes privatizations are the same has in a liberal policy, but the role of the government grows in corporate statism since they are the ones buying all the stuff that isn't exported.
- Petey Bee Jul 21, 2015
  
  also, the standard nationalize-then-privatize formula for so-called "neo-liberal" benevolent economic interventions, pretty much always feeds local corruption -- since local leaders have to be persuaded to subvert the democratic process to some degree. So they get a cut. If they don't play along, they also get the blame.
- Petey Bee Jul 21, 2015
  
  Usually, when economic-liberal (aka libertarian) policies are put in place, there's a good deal of hypocrisy involved. The principles are abandoned as soon as the sponsors of the policy are in danger of losing the benefits they expected.
- Jose araujo Jul 21, 2015
  
  I'm liberal, and all I can see is Raising Taxes and Growing Government.
  
  Puzzles me how so called liberals and libertarians can support this measures.
  
  Greece is where it is now because banks were not allowed to fail, markets didn't work, and Greece didn't default.
  
  Take a look at Iceland and tell me where are the liberals?
William Meehan Jul 21, 2015

All well and good, but what about the German work force that pays taxes to provide bailouts? Many of these West Germans bailed out East Germany upon reunification, and now the German economy as a whole is the basis for the Greek bailout. For what length of time are German taxpayers on the hook for EU member states that do not take responsibility for their own actions? Tee up Puerto Rico for US taxpayers to bailout next!
- Jose araujo Jul 21, 2015
  
  William, German work force isn't paying, the bailout is a financial instrument, and the basis for the bailout is the Euro, not Germany.
  
  Actually the only way we non Greeks are going to pay is through the perpetuation of austherity measures in our own countries, because in either way, we were not paying a single cent.
- Petey Bee Jul 21, 2015
  
  Yes, and US taxpayers didn't complain when we bailed out our bankrupt banks, mismanaged financial institutions, non-competitive car companies... although it sure was easier when the FED just bought up a bunch of bond market assets to stimulate the creation of money.
  
  Turns out our policy makers cared not a fig for the "sanctity of markets" so often spoken of by economic conservatives, and it turned out for the better, for now at least. There was never the constraint of "austerity" in the US. I think part of the reasoning is that if massive monetary intervention by the central bank this turns out to be a mistake, and takes down the US (and Japan), then we're taking the rest of the world down too so it's ok. Might as well not worry about it.
- Robert Winter Jul 21, 2015
  
  A further thought: The Puerto Banks are not at risk precisely because they are part of the U.S. deposit insurance program --- a program in effect funded by all U.S. citizens -- and there is no chance that PR will be treated by the U.S. the way Greece has been treated by the E.U..
- Robert Winter Jul 21, 2015
  
  Arguably Germany has benefited from economic policies that benefit it at the expense of the periphery -- e.g., by refusing to accept a higher rate of inflation. But put that aside and compare it to the U.S. where the citizens of many of the wealthier states (with some changes of which those are over time) automatically through federal government programs provide "bailouts" and financial support to poorer states whose economies run into trouble. For example, Texas after the real estate collapse and the savings and loan crisis. That is why the U.S. is a country and the EU a failing project.
Emile-Robert Perrin Jul 21, 2015

You right. The problem with the Greeks is twofold : they consume more than they produce, so borrowing is endless, and they cheat to enter the Euro Zone. Not a good way to unite with others.
Henry Rech Jul 21, 2015

European civil war - ever has it been thus. The lulls intervening between the periods of internecine hostilities have allowed new groupings to develop in preparation for the next conflagration. At the centre of of these movements there has been either a deluded ambitious German or a deluded ambitious Frenchman, overlooked from a distance by an equally deluded ambitious Russian. (Occasionally, a figure will emerge which works to keep the peace such as Metternich and his Concert of Europe although this union was primarily designed to forestall Bonaparte restoration and the progress of liberalism). How is the current version of deluded ambition any different? What chance a stable European political union free of the historical rivalries?
Jose araujo Jul 21, 2015

The perversion is that there is no economic reference framework or theory to vouch for the EU policies so we have to conclude that the motivations are political not economic.

There isn't an economic valuable argument in this discussion, what we are seeing is a particular way of seeing the world that is being imposed in all Europeans without taking care to ask us if this is what we want from Europe.

This is the construction of the 4th Reich without firing a single weapon, there is no economics justification behind it, only politics.
- Jose araujo Jul 22, 2015
  
  Mathew,your text is just a collection of demagogy and propaganda.
  
  First, in the heart of the crisis isn't a government problem, Greece was growing pre Euro and the society is the same.
  
  Second, you are spurring some racist xenophobic views, diminuishing the Greek people for a pseudo economic explanation of the situation when the problem is clearly of the institutions.
  
  Third, the foundation of Europe was based on solidariety, Germany was the one that broke the solidariety leading to the soverign debt problem.
  
  Fourth, the problems of Greece emerged when Greek banks were prevented to fail to keep German banks safe.
  
  Fifth and last, there is no economic framework or theory behind the EU policies. We are not only going against Keynes but Friedman and Fisher to name a few.
- Matthew McCarthy Jul 22, 2015
  
  It is very grandiloquent to ask about the philosophical motivations that lie behind the wonderful humanism of France and the evil economic legalism Germany, but if you are asking the question the way the article does you have already decided your answer. In the end you can throw away the philosophizing and ask the simple question "Who is being honest?" That has a simple answer: Germany. People are making all kinds of claims about dignity and humiliation and democracy and sovereignty, which is interesting, but generally they aren't honest. The claim that a vote in Greece should bind the other 300M members of the EU to pay for Greek debt is not democracy at all. Greece will not increase their own sovereignty by forcing other countries to contribute to the political corruption at the heart of the Greek crisis - it will merely keep Greece from attaining the real sovereignty that comes with a well-governed country, decrease the sovereignty of those forced to contribute and undermine the rule of law in all of Europe. Yes there are visions of a more united and peaceful Europe - and that's all well and good. But if you can't manage a simple foundation of a minimum level of honesty the only way union can be accomplished is through tyranny. I am quite surprised that Schauble is being so utterly villainized for stating something so basic: the foundation of the Eurozone treaty was an agreement that it would not be a transfer union. A transfer union implies a great loss of sovereignty to all the members involved, which none of the Eurozone members have agreed to. If a transfer union is desired it will need to be negotiated, not just assumed into existence, or there will no longer be any foundation to work with. The current bailout deal cannot work because the Greek debt is too high and the Greek system is too broken to fix with such a solution. The only way to support the current deal is to assume that in a few years time when Greece is still broken and the new debts are due, and the state assets have already been stolen via privatization in the corrupt system, maybe Germany will want to pretend that the Eurozone is a transfer union. And again assuming a transfer union into existence will still be a bad idea. Does anyone believe that after this bailout is accepted the Eurozone countries will start the negotiations to create a transfer union? I didn't think so.

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